How many Incarnations of the Master?

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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby CaptainJimiPie » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:44 pm

SarahJaneFan wrote:I watched your video earlier and found your theory about the gap between MacQueen and the Titan Comics Master intriguing however I ultimately disagree. It’s stated specifically that the Master was resurrected by the Time Lords in order to fight against the Daleks, so while not quite involved in the Time War as that hasn’t happened yet, it does imply that there’s an approaching reason the Time Lords deemed it necessary to resurrect the Master of all people to fight. Could it be that they have predicted the Time War? Well they are Time Lords after all. Also, Dark Eyes doesn’t take place too long before Doom Coalition and in Doom Coalition the Time Lords do seem to be aware that there is a Time War coming. Plus I just don’t like the idea of slipping in a whole unexplored Regeneration Cycle when his first one still hasn’t been explored.

Another thing about your theory that I disagree with, and also fell into the trap of was assuming that we didn’t know much about the Tzun Master therefore hypothesising that he and Tipple must be the same incarnation. Actually the Tzun Master came into existence when the Ainley Master made a deal with an alien race called the Tzun, he would help them if they let him use their technology to cure the cheetah virus. They agreed and he used their nanites to change the DNA of the Trakenite body he was inhabiting and made it fully Time Lord. This apparently granted him another set of Regenerations because later on, Ace shoots him in the back and he regenerates into the “Tzun” Master. Later the Nanites start to fail, so he tries to get a new body on Gallifrey, but this fails and so the nanites fail and essentially reversed. My guess is that because the nanites couldn’t simply reverse the DNA back to Trakenite as he had regenerated and the DNA changed completely, this meant that when the nanites failed it stripped away the stolen body completely, leaving him as the Beevers husk again.

This basically means that the Tipple incarnation can be neither the Ainley one or the Tzun one, as they both have their own distinct fates. This leaves the Tipple incarnation to be a stolen body of its own.

So basically it’s like this ;

Beevers
Stolen Ainley body
Ainley body becomes Time Lord using Nanites
Ace kills Ainley, he regenerates into Tzun
The nanites fail and the once Trakenite and now Time Lord regenerated Tzun Body is stripped away
This leaves him as the Beevers husk again - stories like Dust Breeding and Master go here
He later steals/acquires another new body - Tipple
In the Tipple body he is put on Trial and executed by the Daleks
He lives on as a Deathworm Morphant
He possesses Bruce but later gets trapped in the eye of Harmony
He later gets released and briefly possesses the body of a dead vagrant before being returned to the Eye of Harmony
He is later released again by Edward Grainger who he possesses and then later possesses Richard
Eventually Richard’s body decays and the Master has to go through several stolen bodies to survive
The Time Lords resurrect him to fight the Daleks - MacQueen


You make very fair points, and I will admit the gap between McQueen and the Time War child incarnation is just an idea on my part, so it's perfectly possible the Time War/current incarnations are in fact later incarnation in the same cycle as McQueen. But as you say you dislike having a whole unexplored cycle, I like having it in there for that reason, specifically as it means it gives Big Finish free licence for another 12 future incarnations without having to worry about imposing on the TV series incarnations.

As for the Tzun Master it could be debated whether he canon or not as his "appearances" form part of the New Virgin Adventures series which is an oft debated point. And it is also slightly unclear as to where he enters into the narrative, so for me it seemed more likely than anything else to fit these two together, or possibly even that the Tzun incarnation is non-canon as First Frontier is contradicted by later stories, but for the sake of trying to make the list somewhat complete I decided to give him a mention!

Ah well each to their own :)

UPDATE : After reviewing things I am willing to say I stand corrected, you are right in what you say about the Tzun incarnation! I will make an amendment update to my video tomorrow!

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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby The Outcast » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:49 am

Wanted to go back to this thread because of a new piece of information. The Master, according to the recently released book "The Missy Chronicles" is said to have 19 incarnations.

This means that Missy is the 19th incarnation, the Saxon Master is the 18th and the War Master is the 17th.

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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby SarahJaneFan » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:37 am

The Outcast wrote:Wanted to go back to this thread because of a new piece of information. The Master, according to the recently released book "The Missy Chronicles" is said to have 19 incarnations.

This means that Missy is the 19th incarnation, the Saxon Master is the 18th and the War Master is the 17th.


That’s interesting. I’m just going to presume that there’s another incarnation between Macqueen and the Child Master, until we hear otherwise.
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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby The Outcast » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:55 pm

Well, here is my new and improved Master incarnations theory thing:

1) That child from the flashback in Sound of Drums.
2) "Magnus" from the DWM comic 'Flashback'
3) The 'First' Master (the first incarnation to leave Gallifrey and take the name "the Master")
4-10) UNKNOWN
11) "the War Chief" (Honestly, the War Chief is far improved if he is just the Master and nothing outright contradicts this)
12) 'Unit Enemy' Master
13) 'Decayed' Master
14) 'Tremas' Master *
15) Tzun Master
EXECUTED
Stolen body #1: Bruce
Stolen body #2: Street preacher
More random stolen bodies
IS RESCUED FROM A SITUATION BY THE TIMELORDS
16) 'Bald' Master
17) 'War' Master
18) 'Saxon' Master
19) 'Missy' Master


*Tremas Master isn't just a stolen body. Atleast, this is what I believe. Unlike with the other stolen bodies, this Master has a different personality from the previous Master. Also, when the decayed Master merges with him, his appearance changes, perhaps indicating the fact that the merge was a Regeneration too. If you believe in the kid Master (which the Big Finish stuff kinda contradicts I think, seeing as it is the War Master at the beginning of the War, not the kid) you can discount this and perhaps say that the Master had another incarnation between Decayed and Mcqueen, which the Faction Paradox stuff kinda hints at. So:
1-12) AS ABOVE
13) 'Decayed' Master
STOLEN BODIES
14) 'War King' Master
15) 'Bald' Master
16) 'Child' Master
17-19) AS ABOVE
This^ is probably more accurate to the canon, but I like my fan theory.

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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby SarahJaneFan » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:29 pm

I’ve looked into it a bit more and seen that it’s alternatively worded that the Master has had 18 deaths. I don’t know how accurate either wording is to the book or if it explicitly mentions Missy actually being the Nineteenth, but if it just says the Master has had 18 deaths then Missy could easily still be number 18.

So my theory is as follows :

1-12). William Hughes is the First Master as the Child. James Dreyfus is one of thes Incarnations, very probably the First and I’d consider him to be the first, but I suppose technically he’s just the first one to call himself Master. Delgado can be any of these after Dreyfus as he’s not necessarily Twelve.

13). Pratt/Beevers (+ Ainley, Tzun, Tipple, Roberts, Glorious Dead, Edward Grainger, Richard, Don Maestro and Don Maestro Son Stolen Bodies.)

14). Macqueen - Becomes this Incarnation after the Time Lords give the Master a new regeneration cycle in the hope that he’ll help them fight the Daleks.

15). The Time War Child Master - Though there’s potential for other Incarnations to slot in here.

16). Jacobi - The Child Master explicitly regenerates into him.

17). Simm - Jacobi explicitly regenerates into him.

18). Gomez - In theory there could be more Masters between Simm and Gomez but I believe the intention is certainly for Gomez to be Simm’s immediate successor.


If the book states that Missy is the Nineteenth Master directly, then there’s either an extra incarnation that we don’t know about between Beevers and Macqueen, Macqueen and the Child or even potentially Simm and Gomez, as these are the only spots where we can fit an extra natural body for the Master.

However if it just states that the Master has died 18 Times, as I’ve read elsewhere, then this is how I think it works out:

Deaths 1-12 - All his deaths leading up to him becoming Beevers.

Potential Death 13 - Ainley body being shot and killed by Ace, leading to its temporary regeneration into the Tzun Master, before that body is stripped away, leaving Beevers once more.

Potential Death 13 - Regeneration from Beevers to Macqueen.

Death 14 - Macqueen to Child

Death 15 - Child to Jacobi

Death 16 - Jacobi to Simm

Death 17 - Simm is shot by Lucy Saxon

Death 18 - Simm to Gomez
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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby CaptainJimiPie » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:33 pm

Here is my revised list

First Cycle
First Incarnation -Child Master seen in Sound Of The Drums/James Dreyfus
Second to Eleventh Incarnations - Unknown
Twelfth Incarnation - Roger Delgado - confirmed to regenerate in Doorway To Hell
Thirteenth Incarnation - Pratt/Beevers - confirmed to be the same incarnation but reason for differing appearances explained in the audio Trail Of The White Worm as him having absorbed some energy from the eye of harmony in The Deadly Assassin

First Stolen Body - Ainley/Tremas - later stabilised by Tzun technology and regenerates into...

Tzun Incarnation - regenerated from Ainley but later regeneration fails reverting him back to the Tremas Body which is also failing and is later reverted back to the decayed incarnation.

Second Stolen Body - Tipple from the TV Movie
"Essence" form - Deathworm Morphant
Third Stolen Body - Bruce
Fourth Stolen Body - Vagrant (The Glorious Dead)
Fifth Stolen Body - George Steer (Forgotten)
Sixth Stolen Body - Richard (Forgotten)
Countless more Stolen Bodies - stated by Beevers Master in the audio story Mastermind that he stole more bodies over the years to survive however the exact number is unknown.

Second Cycle
McQueen Incarnation - States that he was rescued from his "predicament" by The TimeLord's hinting he has been give new cycle, it is also later hinted that this MAY have been his resurrection in preparation for the time war.

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PURELY CONJECTURE AND "HEADCANON" ON MY PART!
Whilst it is most likely that McQueen is the first in the "new series cycle" I personally like to think that when The TimeLord's resurrected The Master (under Rassilon's orders) for the time war to be the "perfect warrior" they would want to him to live as long as possible and so they would resurrect him with a full regeneration cycle, as such my personal head canon is the Child Master is in fact the first in his THIRD cycle, and at present time there has not been anything explicitly stated to counter this idea

Third Cycle
Child Incarnation - The First War Master who fought alongside the War Doctor in the Eleventh Doctor Second Year Comics, confirmed/seen to regenerate into...
Jacobi Incarnation - regenerated from the Child Master, later uses the Chameleon Arch to change and "regress" himself into a human baby who later aged naturally as a human in the same body before once again becoming a TimeLord and regenerating into...
Saxon Incarnation - normal body, later resurrected but resurrection fails, however "cured" by The TimeLord's following the events of The End Of Time as stated in The Doctor Falls, stabbed by future incarnation causing regeneration into said incarnation.
Missy Incarnation - Whilst not EXPLICITLY stated to be the next incarnation after Simm it is strongly implied and at present time is the most recently known incarnation

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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby SarahJaneFan » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:19 pm

CaptainJimiPie wrote:Here is my revised list

First Cycle
First Incarnation -Child Master seen in Sound Of The Drums/James Dreyfus
Second to Eleventh Incarnations - Unknown
Twelfth Incarnation - Roger Delgado - confirmed to regenerate in Doorway To Hell
Thirteenth Incarnation - Pratt/Beevers - confirmed to be the same incarnation but reason for differing appearances explained in the audio Trail Of The White Worm as him having absorbed some energy from the eye of harmony in The Deadly Assassin

First Stolen Body - Ainley/Tremas - later stabilised by Tzun technology and regenerates into...

Tzun Incarnation - regenerated from Ainley but later regeneration fails reverting him back to the Tremas Body which is also failing and is later reverted back to the decayed incarnation.

Second Stolen Body - Tipple from the TV Movie
"Essence" form - Deathworm Morphant
Third Stolen Body - Bruce
Fourth Stolen Body - Vagrant (The Glorious Dead)
Fifth Stolen Body - George Steer (Forgotten)
Sixth Stolen Body - Richard (Forgotten)
Countless more Stolen Bodies - stated by Beevers Master in the audio story Mastermind that he stole more bodies over the years to survive however the exact number is unknown.

Second Cycle
McQueen Incarnation - States that he was rescued from his "predicament" by The TimeLord's hinting he has been give new cycle, it is also later hinted that this MAY have been his resurrection in preparation for the time war.

THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PURELY CONJECTURE AND "HEADCANON" ON MY PART!
Whilst it is most likely that McQueen is the first in the "new series cycle" I personally like to think that when The TimeLord's resurrected The Master (under Rassilon's orders) for the time war to be the "perfect warrior" they would want to him to live as long as possible and so they would resurrect him with a full regeneration cycle, as such my personal head canon is the Child Master is in fact the first in his THIRD cycle, and at present time there has not been anything explicitly stated to counter this idea

Third Cycle
Child Incarnation - The First War Master who fought alongside the War Doctor in the Eleventh Doctor Second Year Comics, confirmed/seen to regenerate into...
Jacobi Incarnation - regenerated from the Child Master, later uses the Chameleon Arch to change and "regress" himself into a human baby who later aged naturally as a human in the same body before once again becoming a TimeLord and regenerating into...
Saxon Incarnation - normal body, later resurrected but resurrection fails, however "cured" by The TimeLord's following the events of The End Of Time as stated in The Doctor Falls, stabbed by future incarnation causing regeneration into said incarnation.
Missy Incarnation - Whilst not EXPLICITLY stated to be the next incarnation after Simm it is strongly implied and at present time is the most recently known incarnation


I think we know that he steals a minimum of three bodies during the time between being Richard and becoming Macqueen. There’s probably more, but I think he possesses a Sailor on the Titanic, then arrives in New York and possesses another guy, becoming known as “Don Maestro”, then later possesses “Don Maestro’s” son, Michael before being caught by UNIT.

The Three cycles theory pretty much doesn’t fit at all now because we know that Missy is either 18 or 19, depending on the exact wording in the Missy Chronicles. Plus, the Time Lords had anticipated the Time War as early as Doom Coalition, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they saw it coming and gave the Master a new cycle, thinking they could control him, but failed.
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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby CaptainJimiPie » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:12 pm

SarahJaneFan wrote:I think we know that he steals a minimum of three bodies during the time between being Richard and becoming Macqueen. There’s probably more, but I think he possesses a Sailor on the Titanic, then arrives in New York and possesses another guy, becoming known as “Don Maestro”, then later possesses “Don Maestro’s” son, Michael before being caught by UNIT.

The Three cycles theory pretty much doesn’t fit at all now because we know that Missy is either 18 or 19, depending on the exact wording in the Missy Chronicles. Plus, the Time Lords had anticipated the Time War as early as Doom Coalition, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they saw it coming and gave the Master a new cycle, thinking they could control him, but failed.


I have yet to read the Missy Chronicles however having once I have looked into it I will amend my theory if this is the case, although it could still be possible assuming that McQueen's cycle didn't fully "complete" however it is more likely that McQueen is the first in the new series cycle.

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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby SarahJaneFan » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:11 pm

CaptainJimiPie wrote:
SarahJaneFan wrote:I think we know that he steals a minimum of three bodies during the time between being Richard and becoming Macqueen. There’s probably more, but I think he possesses a Sailor on the Titanic, then arrives in New York and possesses another guy, becoming known as “Don Maestro”, then later possesses “Don Maestro’s” son, Michael before being caught by UNIT.

The Three cycles theory pretty much doesn’t fit at all now because we know that Missy is either 18 or 19, depending on the exact wording in the Missy Chronicles. Plus, the Time Lords had anticipated the Time War as early as Doom Coalition, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they saw it coming and gave the Master a new cycle, thinking they could control him, but failed.


I have yet to read the Missy Chronicles however having once I have looked into it I will amend my theory if this is the case, although it could still be possible assuming that McQueen's cycle didn't fully "complete" however it is more likely that McQueen is the first in the new series cycle.


It’s made it into the Tardis wiki, so I’m fairly certain Missy is either the Nineteenth Master or Missy has claimed to have died 18 times before, which could place her as the Eighteenth. Problem is I’ve not read it and I’ve heard to different variations of the line. One thing that’s interesting though is that they’ve made the effort to call Simm the Eighteenth and Jacobi the Seventeenth but not called the Titan Comics Master the Sixteenth even though he explicitly comes before Jacobi, which makes me think that Missy and her previous two Incarnations may have been numbered specifically.
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Re: How many Incarnations of the Master?

Postby SarahJaneFan » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:05 pm

Having now seen the line in the Missy Chronicles book, I can confirm that it simply states that the Master had died at least 18 times, “Stolen some bloke’s body” and been turned human and back again before becoming a woman. Therefore, due to the nature of the Master’s character, there’s no reason to suggest that Missy definitely is the Nineteenth Incarnation. At the same time however, it’s probably not the most reliable source as it only mentions the one body theft (though it is a list of life events,so the Ainley one would be more important than the others which were all very brief) and also lists Thirteen deaths prior to the body theft rather than twelve as you might expect.

I definitely think that my theory still fits into this description nonetheless.

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