Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

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Danoftardis
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Danoftardis »

I don't really know what to say about that episode. My initial reaction last night was "Well that was stupid" but I mean it is what it is. I'm indifferent about the episode itself, boring isn't the right word but I felt very detached while watching it. I'm still not particularly fond of Dhawan's Master and I was rather sad that Jack didn't make another appearance. I don't mind the new Cyberboi look though. The series as a whole has been a bit of a disappointment for me, no more than a couple episodes are ones I think I'll really watch again, and it's certainly down the bottom of my list of 'favourites'.

As to the whole Timeless Child thing, well I don't particularly like it, I think it's doing something big/different for the sake of it, not because it's good, but I'm sure in time it'll be forgotten like other plot points in the past so it doesn't really bother me. I look forward to the next series and hope I enjoy it more.
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Avon
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Avon »

I loved it, I really did. The bloody thirsty side of me partly hoped, after I watched season 11, that one of the companions'd be Adric'd, but I really grew to like them over 12, so I'm glad they weren't offed. I think, as I'm typing this, it occurs that maybe my one let down is that, apart from Ryan running around the tent, I didn't "feel" genuine jeopardy for them, even though I should've given the situation.

Now for the stuff I enjoyed. The Cybermen, while still a bit cybusy, were excellent (I'm not apologizing for that :lol: ), I loved their Dreadnought esque armor, their Borgish ship looming over the capital, and how the lone Cyberman was Cairo Swordsmaned. Sacha I think is a fantastic master and it was a delight to see him have such a huge part, almost like a blend of Ainley and Simm, capable, deadly, utterly barking mad, great fun. His cybermen too, very DWM like, they really look like something out of a grant morrison comic and I love them for it, totally insane but totally fitting for their master, gave them a silly hat, then literally looks like he threw a curtain over the armor and called it done.

The retcon... it wasn't as underhanded as I expected, by the timelords I mean. Part of me wished we'd seen that the universe had been rebooted by the Time Lords in favor of themselves, and thus Hartnell would truly be 1 and various other things would neatly fall into place, etc, etc etc.

But, I love the feeling, a very liberating feeling, of what the story has done. Chibs has literally blown the entire cannon, not up, but open, Morbius Doctors cannon, the Other, certainly fits as a broad outline as does all the threads in S25 and S26, Shalka with a Doctor working for the timelords, likewise..., and now the Hybrid makes sense too, so many questions, so much potential space, so so much to talk about, I love it. Because of course, the Master always lies.. How does Susan fit into all this? And what if the Doctor really is proper gallifreyian? Another universe, or even, sent from the end of their civilization and her entire existence is a paradox? First, and last for the Timelords? For the first time in a decade I'm genuinely excited for more. And Shaaaaada?

And the big takeaway, Robert Holmes is now officially the Doctor, crazy times we live in

Whovastron
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Whovastron »

Oh yeah, it actually means the hybrid is all time lords lol
And it explains why people outside the Capitol can’t regenerate.
It does explain a lot, but it would of been better if it wasn’t the Doctor. I don’t mind the idea, it it does really take away from the Doctor’s origins as we knew them. I think it would of been better if the child was the master, it would explain why he keeps coming back, and why he’s bonkers

I’ve got a lot of thoughts about this story. But here’s my series 12 rankings:

The Haunting of Villa Diodati
Spyfall P1
The Timeless Children
Ascension of the Cybermen
Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror
Spyfall P2
Can you Hear Me
Fugitive of the Judoon
Praxeus
Orphan 55

TW.

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SJF
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by SJF »

The Haunting of Villa Diodati
Can You Hear Me?
Spyfall
Praxeus
Fugitive of the Judoon
Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror
Ascension of the Cybermen
Orphan 55
The Timeless Children
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Whovastron
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Whovastron »

If you wanna talk just stories though, Villa/Ascension/children is number 1, then Spyfall, then the rest in the order I put. Also gonna be renaming the whole 3 parter as Ascension of the Cybermen in my head :lol:

TW.

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Galactic YoYo
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Galactic YoYo »

The best word I can use to describe series 12 is Rushed. With the exceptions of Nikola Tesla and Haunting of the Villa Diodati, every episode needed to be an hour longer in order to tell their story properly. They made more of an effort with Yaz as a character, at the expense of Ryan who doesn't really have much to do, Although a lot of it feels out of place or should have been done sooner. It's funny how Yaz trying to have her own goals and desires in Praxeus was a sign of her being out of character. I liked Sasha Dhawan as the Master though he's mugging did grate on me at some points.

Spyfall part1- Nice modern update of the standard Pertwee espionage story, complete with the Master being the villain all along. Stephen Fry is wasted in this story. 7/10

Part 2- Awkward, but fun detour, the main plot is kind of side lined. I like Ada Lovelace, I would have liked to see her as a companion. Lenny Henry's character is pretty underdeveloped. 7/10

Orphan 55- To much going on not enough time, the Earth reveal came far to late, might have worked as a part 1 cliff-hanger reveal, but as is just comes out of nowhere. Guest cast are given literally seconds to be established. A mediocre story made worse by poor production. 3/10

Nicola Tesla- Really enjoyed this one, the villain wasn't great but a nice historical non the less. 7.5/10

Fugitive of the Judoon- An ok RTD era style story, cut short to reintroduce the main arc, Jack's involvement starts of great, but gets more irritating with each scene as it becomes clear he has no purpose in the story. Didn't really like The Ruth Doctor, she came off as really cold and aggressive, though it does make sense since she's pre-Hartnell. the Tardis already being a police box is just lazy writing. Can't really be enjoyed on it's own. 5/10

Praxeus- A nothing story, which constantly teases the return of the Sea Devils, the netting in the set design, deliberately keeping the faces of the 'aliens' hidden setting up a big reveal only to go, Nope it's just more Humanoid Aliens. As a political episode, it message was handled better. 4/10
Can you hear me- Interesting ideas not given time to develop. Ryan's friend doesn't have enough screen time for me to get invested. The Syria subplot works thematically, but is ultimately pointless. The initial villain was great, but his partner wasn't needed. As a piece on Mental Health issues, it falls flat. 4.5/10

The Haunting of the Villa Diodati- The best put together story, but that's mainly because it had been done before. It's still pretty good. The cyberman design and character is pretty good. 8/10

Ascension of the Cybermen- A lot of set up and no pay off, The Brendan subplot was intriguing but has no proper resolution. 5.5/10

The Timeless Child- Too much exposition which is drawn out and repeated over and over. I don't like the Timeless Child being the Doctor, I hate New Who's obsession with trying to deify or make the Doctor more significant, given how it's not going to have a long lasting impact on the Doctor going forward there was no real point. The ending was abrupt and not much of a conclusion. Some great lines scattered throughout 4.5/10

Ranking Worst to Best:
Series 12 on it's own-
Orphan 55
Praxeus
Timeless child/ Can you hear me
Fugitive
Ascension
Spyfall
Nicola Tesla
Haunting

Jodie Whittaker era so far:
Arachnids in the UK
Tsaranga
Orphan 55
Praxeus
The Witchfinders
Ranscor
Witchfinders
Timeless Child
can you hear me
Resolution
It takes you away
Demons of the Punjab
Fugitive
The Ghost Monument
Kerblam
Spyfall
The Woman who fell to Earth
Nicola Tesla
Rosa
Haunting
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"It seems that I am some kind of a Galactic yoyo" Jon Pertwee- The Claws of Axos

Spannerintheworks
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Spannerintheworks »

SJF wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:00 pm
Well that was bad. But I knew what was coming so as I mentioned before, I’m not really as disappointed as I might have been if I wasn’t expecting this.
That's what bothers me most. This was SO predictable. Suddenly, Series 6's "twists" are radical by comparison to me.

The Master being the Timeless Child and the Doctor having stood up for/bearing punishment for him. The Doctor having to choose changing Gallifrey's corrupt history over, say, the companions. The companions disagreeing with the Doctor's decision or actions for some reason....ANYTHING that had actual drama or conflict.

The show generated drama this year by threatening canon. That's messed up. Not a character relationship or the Doctor's existence itself. It held fandom's attention (well, half of the audience it had prior, anyway) by threatening
to possibly reorder what came before.

I think I'm most shocked by how little the Doctor and the companions relationship and regard for each other matters so little now too. While sometimes it could overpower the show (Rose) more than I liked, at least there was some better understanding or explanation of the "why" or questioning why they continue to travel with the Doctor/their regard for the Doctor's morality. If the Master hadn't said anything to them the start of this year, they barely would have rocked the boat about knowing more about the Doctor. (Which bugs me more - They travelled for all of season 11 and more up to Spyfall and NEVER tried to pursue ANY details??? What do they talk about? It's like Donna's 'kids' in 'Forest of the Dead' - Do they just stop being people when we're not watching???)

This era was supposed to be more "down to earth" & "real". These characters are so thin they're anorexic to me. I feel like the reason viewership dropped is that: There's no one to really get to know (Doctor included most of the time)/invest in to the point where canon & an audience love for the show previous is what was at stake this year. That amazes me each time I type it. And when you make the "reveal" SO obvious it was probably one of the first you thought of....well, you aren't exactly making "Can't miss" TV then. (And in fairness, other reveals this year - The Master, Jack, Ruth, the Lone Cyberman- were either well done surprises or paid off better than expected. Or both!)

It was better than Series 11. And it packed some genuine twists in that were daring. But in likelihood we've got one more full Whittaker year, and if I'm being generous even with good moments it seems so slight overall. Even this year's "big reveal", ultimately means little to the show at large as it continues: You can tune in to Series 13, and if you missed out 11 or 12, no big deal. Meanwhile, imagine watching Series 3 without the context of Series1 & 2. Or skipping Series 5 & 6 and trying to get the ramifications of Series 7. Broad examples, but I just feel like the lack of stakes and character reset buttons are indicative of gains the new series made that this era has somewhat lost.

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Galactic YoYo
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Galactic YoYo »

In the defence of this arc, at least it's something that was established and set up decades ago, unlike say the hybrid or Clara which only came into existence at the start of the season and end being resloved and forgotten about by the finale. Although, the Cracks in time did sort of last a little longer after series 5 and did use preexisting events as part of it's set up.
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Whovastron
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Whovastron »

Galactic YoYo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:04 pm
In the defence of this arc, at least it's something that was established and set up decades ago, unlike say the hybrid or Clara which only came into existence at the start of the season and end being resloved and forgotten about by the finale. Although, the Cracks in time did sort of last a little longer after series 5 and did use preexisting events as part of it's set up.
Yeah the cracks lead to the next arc too, very much worked

TW.

Spannerintheworks
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Re: Series 12 discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Spannerintheworks »

Galactic YoYo wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:04 pm
In the defence of this arc, at least it's something that was established and set up decades ago, unlike say the hybrid or Clara which only came into existence at the start of the season and end being resloved and forgotten about by the finale. Although, the Cracks in time did sort of last a little longer after series 5 and did use preexisting events as part of it's set up.
I mean, were they though? Yeah, the Morbius Doctors work but they were NOT seeding for this. In contrast, the Hybrid wasn't the point of the arc - the Doctor finally, FINALLY letting people go was. (And this arc resolves the "Hybrid" concept as well, so I guess that's retroactively great too? :P I do love the implication that Capaldi knew what was up and just didn't care to share due to being annoyed.)

I agree that it's cool some "loose canon" (Hybrid, Morbius Doctors, Shabogans, etc) get resolved nicely. I don't mind any of it conceptually, but a revelation like this could've built up or underpinned a multidoctor story or anniversary. An EVENT. Instead, it gets the rushed wrap up of "Wedding of River Song". (Well, not THAT rushed. Credit where due, Series 6 badly needed multipart stories.)

Chibnall said this one was his plan from the start. His big twist that, in fairness, he seeded in the reveal trailer and "The Ghost Monument". It deserved bigger and better; My biggest complaint is it's so underwhelming.

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