Controversial Opinions!

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Whovastron
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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby Whovastron » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:51 am

Let me just reiterate, the when I say I disliked bill as a companion, it wasn’t anything to do with her being gay, I just thought Moffat handled that badly. I just didn’t like her character in general, she was annoying and just was unrealistic as a person, always saying things that don’t make sense and no one should ever say (it’s looks like a kitchen). She, like the rest of series 10, was just all the tropes of moffat’s era on steroids

TW.
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Deborah J
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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby Deborah J » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:48 am

Whovastron wrote:Let me just reiterate, the when I say I disliked bill as a companion, it wasn’t anything to do with her being gay, I just thought Moffat handled that badly. I just didn’t like her character in general, she was annoying and just was unrealistic as a person, always saying things that don’t make sense and no one should ever say (it’s looks like a kitchen). She, like the rest of series 10, was just all the tropes of moffat’s era on steroids

TW.

Don't worry,TW, we would never assume any bad intentions from you. I do think, though, as a few people have pointed out, the world in general, as it is just now, kind of presumes a very heteronormative viewpoint, and those who fall outside of that do have to disclose that multiple times. Because most times they meet a new person it'll be a case of "assume the default unless told otherwise" and of course your sexuality is not relevant information to everyone you meet, but it's also kind of true of the world at the moment that if you are and attractive young woman (and I would say that Bill was) then you tend to get on the recieving end of flirting, be it light and relatively harmless, or the more persistent obnoxious kind, and in such a situation it is generally necessary to remind that person that they're barking up entirely the wrong tree. And when around friends it's not that unusual to bring up romantic interests you have, since bill is gay those romantic interests are female, and as soon as she brings that up it's a reminder of her being gay. I don't think that's any heavier than any straight characters expressing interest in people of the opposite gender, but again, largely heteronormative society, anything else stands out more, it's white paint on a black carpet, even a tiny drop is really going to show up.

But that's just my view on it, my best friend kind of holds the "yeah, I'm fine with it but if they keep bringing it up it seems like their only character trait" viewpoint, and I can see where that thought comes from, I just don't agree with it.
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Spannerintheworks
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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby Spannerintheworks » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:15 pm

Here's a doozy:

UNIT had to get disbanded...to fit with canon.

SO many 2nd Doctor stories (most relevant being "The Enemy of the World"), "Warriors of the Deep", even "Waters of Mars" - these stories imply that an active Doctor-conscious scientific and military body does not exist in the 21st century following 2018, or at least is greatly diminished.

Its removal would allow someone like Salamander (who greatly resembles someone they have on file!) to gain power. Or explain why future leaders wouldn't be clued in by a substantial international force to contact the Doctor, or vet his involvement.

The only occasion UNIT appears to prominently pop up post 2020 is "Under the Lake/Before the Flood" - and it still squares up. "They're from UNIT!!" is said with total surprise, like no one expected them to turn up..or even exist. Knowledge on UNIT/The Doctor shared is less professional and more fan/personal research...not the kind you'd have from incident reports or training. And, really, this event would be right up UNIT's alley 1970-2018...but still, surprise and no expectations of reinforcement. The Doctor gives his ID, but it's to a military body, not necessarily UNIT. Files on him likely still exist, and he gives the credential that would let them bring it up. At best, maybe they exist as an archive capacity - That Black Archive tech needs someone looking after it. Or maybe they've been revived as a minor unit like Torchwood.

Which on that note: Canon kinda requires Torchwood to be a fringe unit (a la "Miracle Day") post-2018 too.

So intentional or not, that's pretty tidy canonwise.

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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby Racks42 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:51 pm

Spannerintheworks wrote:Here's a doozy:

UNIT had to get disbanded...to fit with canon.

SO many 2nd Doctor stories (most relevant being "The Enemy of the World"), "Warriors of the Deep", even "Waters of Mars" - these stories imply that an active Doctor-conscious scientific and military body does not exist in the 21st century following 2018, or at least is greatly diminished.

Its removal would allow someone like Salamander (who greatly resembles someone they have on file!) to gain power. Or explain why future leaders wouldn't be clued in by a substantial international force to contact the Doctor, or vet his involvement.

The only occasion UNIT appears to prominently pop up post 2020 is "Under the Lake/Before the Flood" - and it still squares up. "They're from UNIT!!" is said with total surprise, like no one expected them to turn up..or even exist. Knowledge on UNIT/The Doctor shared is less professional and more fan/personal research...not the kind you'd have from incident reports or training. And, really, this event would be right up UNIT's alley 1970-2018...but still, surprise and no expectations of reinforcement. The Doctor gives his ID, but it's to a military body, not necessarily UNIT. Files on him likely still exist, and he gives the credential that would let them bring it up. At best, maybe they exist as an archive capacity - That Black Archive tech needs someone looking after it. Or maybe they've been revived as a minor unit like Torchwood.

Which on that note: Canon kinda requires Torchwood to be a fringe unit (a la "Miracle Day") post-2018 too.

So intentional or not, that's pretty tidy canonwise.


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The Outcast
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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby The Outcast » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:25 pm

If UNIT gets disbanded, UNISYC needs show up on TV for the sweet, sweet EDA tie in.

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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby SarahJaneFan » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:59 pm

Vienna is canon and Rose the Cat isn’t.

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ANewWatchBegins
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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby ANewWatchBegins » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:20 am

I'm not sure if this is controversial or not but I think Michelle Gomez was completely misused. I'm not a massive fan of how the Master in the new series is sort of eccentric maniac evil, it kind of worked with Simm, but on the whole I think it's too silly, and I much prefer the cool, quiet evil Master, and I think Michelle Gomez could have done some amazing stuff with that if she hadn't been given sort of comedy and flirty stuff to do, which I think made her more annoying than scary. I was just watching the 'where I fall' speech and in that scene she is giving one hell of a performance without saying a word - I think if she'd been better written she would have been an amazing Master, or Missy rather.

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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby Racks42 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:25 pm

ANewWatchBegins wrote:I'm not sure if this is controversial or not but I think Michelle Gomez was completely misused. I'm not a massive fan of how the Master in the new series is sort of eccentric maniac evil, it kind of worked with Simm, but on the whole I think it's too silly, and I much prefer the cool, quiet evil Master, and I think Michelle Gomez could have done some amazing stuff with that if she hadn't been given sort of comedy and flirty stuff to do, which I think made her more annoying than scary. I was just watching the 'where I fall' speech and in that scene she is giving one hell of a performance without saying a word - I think if she'd been better written she would have been an amazing Master, or Missy rather.


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Spannerintheworks
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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby Spannerintheworks » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:20 pm

So, I only disagree with the Missy observation because well, it gives her somewhere to grow.

And after Ainley's Snidely Whiplash routine throughout the 80s(I love him, but...he's definitely CAMP.), it's nice to have a recurring Master who is, well, smart enough to grow. She starts off in Simm territory, yeah. But with much more concern to her plan; Simm was unhinged, she's excited, but....with purpose. Of course, The Doctor rebukes her Cyberman chaos, is unamused by her Clara trick, and....has mercy on her when even she knows not to expect any. Believes in her. And cares to save her. For the first time, we see a Master who grows so much that when she (literally) comes full circle with where he/she started... she not only is ready to stand with the Doctor, but call time on the pointless evil mischief he/she has been up to. And actively end it/him. She's outgrown it, and is ready to be more.

Is it done perfect across 3 series? No. But it's the most affecting thing about Series 10 for me and more care for the character since the 70s. Bravo.

Some more:

*I noticed that some people were puzzling the whole "Why is Tom so popular?" I'll avoid the "Judge him by the person he was off-set" angle and then say this:

It's simple. The individual standalone stories, their quality, and standalone villains make his era easily rewarding. His Doctor being fun/intense is just icing on the cake.

*Most of the episodes are 4 parts max, and actually minimize filler.
*Even then, the stories have sense to relocate action to a new setting midway through ("Pyramids of Mars" to, er, Mars, "Deadly Assassin" to the Matrix, etc.).
*With particular regard to Seasons 12-14, the threats/villains are memorable at the least, iconic at most.
*Most importantly - the stories are, for the most part, easily watched in Isolation, and have their own narrative arcs that are involving.

This dawned on me when watching the "Honest Trailers" commentary for their classic Who trailer. (Spoiler: It's an instruction in how "not-we" struggle with the classic and new series.) The black and white episodes were a struggle, Pertwee was overall enjoyable, Baker had the strongest stories, and it was all downhill after 1980. (Side note: I lol'd when Davison popped up and they said "He was nice". Yep.)

Do I agree with all of that? Of course not!!! But again, it's instructive: This is how non-fans would approach and indeed, struggle with a show that rewards attention and involvement. And even they found the Baker stories strong, so....that's saying something.

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Deborah J
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Re: Controversial Opinions!

Postby Deborah J » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:42 pm

I feel like Tom's stories were very strong for the first 3 years, then never quite carried that quality after they got to s4 of him. Like it's not bad after that, but it's sub-pertwee, a lot of it is sub-davison. A lot of people really hate the wacky k9 and comedy s15-17 period, like I've heard people be very negative about the whole thing and I don't think that's really fair, there were some good stories in that time, even a few great ones, but really it's just the first half of Tom#s run that was spectacularly good. Pertwee's run, to me, was more consistently good, even with change in tone and characters and status quo, there was a very steady throughline of quality, I guess from having the same producer all the way through, Tom had 4 of them. But because of that, even though Pertwee didn't have any series as strong as the first 3 of Tom, all 5 were better than the last 4 of Tom, so Pertwee has the better run in my eyes. It is subjective, though, of course.
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