Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

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Spannerintheworks
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by Spannerintheworks »

Dalekoddjob wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:06 pm
Neon Wolf wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:57 pm
Spannerintheworks wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:15 pm


Oof, that really does resonate....

She didn't really blink about someone else blowing themselves up or blowing up the Master (who the show has gone through pains 10 years previously to illustrate means something to the Doctor too), or all other life on Gallifrey (which has pretty disturbing ramifications that are just being glossed over) to just run away and save herself. Bluntly; Running away and saving themselves at others' expense? Maybe the Doctor has no business criticizing Jack Robertson - they both do the same cowardly thing.

It's on Chibnall in both instances, so given the frankly shocking and poor writing, I guess one more body count (er, TARDIS count) is no big thing to our resident sociopath. :P
This whole era feels like a first draft on paper and a first take on camera, the amount of oversight and disregard of continuity is astonishing.

On a side note I had a chuckle watching 'Beat the Chasers' on ITV earlier as one of the questions was 'On what planet was the Doctor born' and the 'correct' answer was 'Gallifrey' which obviously got retconned last season.
To be fair the character we know as the Doctor came to be as a resultof being on gallifrey, so technically its correct. :)
To give even more leeway, the "revelations" of Series 12 were given so broadly it would take almost no effort to write/rewrite/invalidate them; The "story" is simply not completed. (And I say that impartially; Regardless of what you think of it, you simply can't say "It's definitely THIS" about it. Too many "We don't know" and "That isn't clear" answers.)

Whether that is an attempt to push the Doctor back into "Doctor Who?" territory and intended to be left ambiguous, a developing narrative with more twists and turns around the corner, or half-baked writing effort it still stands that we have no definitive answer. (I honestly feel it's a bit of all 3.)

Side note: There's a pretty substantial wager in multiple forums that ultimately there will be some level of deception with the Master involved: Not a full retcon (but see, even THAT works with the given narrative - nothing actively conflicts with it) but some equally great issue/reveal. And if this is not an attempt to restore "mystery" a la the series' title, I have to admit the way all this is done certainly lends itself to intentional misdirection ("It could be THAT.....but it could also be THIS" type of thing.)

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skifflebits
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by skifflebits »

Well, we'll see. Chibs may yet pull it out of the bag, but I'm not placing bets either way.

The latest special's clunky script didn't give me much confidence.

Look, he wouldn't be the first showrunner to fumble at the two yard line.
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Spannerintheworks
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by Spannerintheworks »

skifflebits wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:25 pm
Well, we'll see. Chibs may yet pull it out of the bag, but I'm not placing bets either way.

The latest special's clunky script didn't give me much confidence.

Look, he wouldn't be the first showrunner to fumble at the two yard line.
In fairness, Davies, Moffat, Nathan-Turner, Hinchcliffe, Williams, and even Letts can all post epic conclusion wins....and losses.

I think for the last "epic conclusion" to any ongoing story or arc most can completely agree absolutely meets/exceeds expectation...we'd need to go back to "The War Games" ;)

(Mind, no hate - You're talking to a guy who sees merit in the Trial, thinks "Hell Bent" is actually rewarding, and found "Journey's End" super unsatisfying. Just saying, sticking the landing with this fanbase is tough.

Remember when just wrapping up a run with another solid adventure was acceptable? (Think "The Seeds of Doom") Crazy, right? :D

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skifflebits
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by skifflebits »

Spannerintheworks wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:47 pm
(Mind, no hate - You're talking to a guy who sees merit in the Trial, thinks "Hell Bent" is actually rewarding, and found "Journey's End" super unsatisfying. Just saying, sticking the landing with this fanbase is tough.
I found "Hell Bent" rewarding, too. "Trial," well... let's just say there were some good ideas in there that got lost in translation.

Personally, I try to be even-handed in my judgments. The internet is full of too many people who want to burn a showrunner to the ground for one bad story, or people who want to crucify you if you didn't think every story was a 10+ instant classic.
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Whovastron
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by Whovastron »

Spannerintheworks wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:15 pm
Neon Wolf wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:44 pm
Has anyone else mentioned that the Doctor killed that TARDIS? It's pretty well established that they're sentient creatures, right? They weren't built they were grown plus 'The Doctor's Wife' which shows the 'soul' of the TARDIS placed inside Idris.
Oof, that really does resonate....

She didn't really blink about someone else blowing themselves up or blowing up the Master (who the show has gone through pains 10 years previously to illustrate means something to the Doctor too), or all other life on Gallifrey (which has pretty disturbing ramifications that are just being glossed over) to just run away and save herself. Bluntly; Running away and saving themselves at others' expense? Maybe the Doctor has no business criticizing Jack Robertson - they both do the same cowardly thing.

It's on Chibnall in both instances, so given the frankly shocking and poor writing, I guess one more body count (er, TARDIS count) is no big thing to our resident sociopath. :P
On the master side of things, remember that from her perspective, the last time she saw the master before Spyfall, he literally left her to be killed by Cybermen in her darkest hour, after one of the very best speeches of her life. Of course we know that Missy had changed, but as far as the Doctor is aware, the master just pissed off and left her to die after years of her trying to rehabilitate them

Spannerintheworks
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by Spannerintheworks »

Whovastron wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:44 pm
Spannerintheworks wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:15 pm
Neon Wolf wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:44 pm
Has anyone else mentioned that the Doctor killed that TARDIS? It's pretty well established that they're sentient creatures, right? They weren't built they were grown plus 'The Doctor's Wife' which shows the 'soul' of the TARDIS placed inside Idris.
Oof, that really does resonate....

She didn't really blink about someone else blowing themselves up or blowing up the Master (who the show has gone through pains 10 years previously to illustrate means something to the Doctor too), or all other life on Gallifrey (which has pretty disturbing ramifications that are just being glossed over) to just run away and save herself. Bluntly; Running away and saving themselves at others' expense? Maybe the Doctor has no business criticizing Jack Robertson - they both do the same cowardly thing.

It's on Chibnall in both instances, so given the frankly shocking and poor writing, I guess one more body count (er, TARDIS count) is no big thing to our resident sociopath. :P
On the master side of things, remember that from her perspective, the last time she saw the master before Spyfall, he literally left her to be killed by Cybermen in her darkest hour, after one of the very best speeches of her life. Of course we know that Missy had changed, but as far as the Doctor is aware, the master just pissed off and left her to die after years of her trying to rehabilitate them
We really have no confirmation this is "next" from Missy though. (If I'm wrong, sources?) And, I do agree the Master-Missy tussle would be unknown to the Doctor but.....that STILL seems a bit curt with little character illustration onscreen. (The "hero" just naturally wanting to off the villain because they're "bad" is just sloppy; 13 really gets little onscreen to justify a "turn" in her regard to the Master.)

I mean, bluntly - This era can't expect us to lose our collective minds about Captain Jack/other 10+ year old nostalgia but at the same time expect us to disregard the EXTENSIVE character development given to the Doctor-Master relationship since 2007. If 13 has turned or altered in her attitude towards him from what we saw from 10 or 12, then a (better) writer would play that out in a way that we actually knew how the character felt: A monologue. A request to him that is again denied. Or an event that makes her change 100% clear. Because really, being captured and being told things to upset the Doctor making her abruptly 180 from "You've changed, stand with me" (12) and "Regenerate. (Cries) REGENERATE!" (10) is pretty poor writing if we're also expected to know who Rose Tyler and a Sycorax are.

Dalekoddjob
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by Dalekoddjob »

Spannerintheworks wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:43 pm
Whovastron wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:44 pm
Spannerintheworks wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:15 pm


Oof, that really does resonate....

She didn't really blink about someone else blowing themselves up or blowing up the Master (who the show has gone through pains 10 years previously to illustrate means something to the Doctor too), or all other life on Gallifrey (which has pretty disturbing ramifications that are just being glossed over) to just run away and save herself. Bluntly; Running away and saving themselves at others' expense? Maybe the Doctor has no business criticizing Jack Robertson - they both do the same cowardly thing.

It's on Chibnall in both instances, so given the frankly shocking and poor writing, I guess one more body count (er, TARDIS count) is no big thing to our resident sociopath. :P
On the master side of things, remember that from her perspective, the last time she saw the master before Spyfall, he literally left her to be killed by Cybermen in her darkest hour, after one of the very best speeches of her life. Of course we know that Missy had changed, but as far as the Doctor is aware, the master just pissed off and left her to die after years of her trying to rehabilitate them
We really have no confirmation this is "next" from Missy though. (If I'm wrong, sources?) And, I do agree the Master-Missy tussle would be unknown to the Doctor but.....that STILL seems a bit curt with little character illustration onscreen. (The "hero" just naturally wanting to off the villain because they're "bad" is just sloppy; 13 really gets little onscreen to justify a "turn" in her regard to the Master.)

I mean, bluntly - This era can't expect us to lose our collective minds about Captain Jack/other 10+ year old nostalgia but at the same time expect us to disregard the EXTENSIVE character development given to the Doctor-Master relationship since 2007. If 13 has turned or altered in her attitude towards him from what we saw from 10 or 12, then a (better) writer would play that out in a way that we actually knew how the character felt: A monologue. A request to him that is again denied. Or an event that makes her change 100% clear. Because really, being captured and being told things to upset the Doctor making her abruptly 180 from "You've changed, stand with me" (12) and "Regenerate. (Cries) REGENERATE!" (10) is pretty poor writing if we're also expected to know who Rose Tyler and a Sycorax are.
In an interview sascha ran through the Masters and put himself after Gomez. Personly I can't wait for the Master to regenerate, Sascha's is a raving pantomime loon. Missy was barking but also clearly cold and calculating. He just comes across as a crazed idiot.

RoseyT
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by RoseyT »

Parts of Hell Bent are honestly brilliant, I adore the episode until Clara really steps in. It shows us more lore, we get to see 12 in rampage mode and it was nice to see Rassilon again after so many years.

I'm glad to see other people not to sure on Sacha's Master, it feels like a revert back to Simm which if I'm honest. Missy was for me the best Master bar Ainley (I like camp what can I say).

Spannerintheworks
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by Spannerintheworks »

Dalekoddjob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:15 am
Spannerintheworks wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:43 pm
Whovastron wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:44 pm


On the master side of things, remember that from her perspective, the last time she saw the master before Spyfall, he literally left her to be killed by Cybermen in her darkest hour, after one of the very best speeches of her life. Of course we know that Missy had changed, but as far as the Doctor is aware, the master just pissed off and left her to die after years of her trying to rehabilitate them
We really have no confirmation this is "next" from Missy though. (If I'm wrong, sources?) And, I do agree the Master-Missy tussle would be unknown to the Doctor but.....that STILL seems a bit curt with little character illustration onscreen. (The "hero" just naturally wanting to off the villain because they're "bad" is just sloppy; 13 really gets little onscreen to justify a "turn" in her regard to the Master.)

I mean, bluntly - This era can't expect us to lose our collective minds about Captain Jack/other 10+ year old nostalgia but at the same time expect us to disregard the EXTENSIVE character development given to the Doctor-Master relationship since 2007. If 13 has turned or altered in her attitude towards him from what we saw from 10 or 12, then a (better) writer would play that out in a way that we actually knew how the character felt: A monologue. A request to him that is again denied. Or an event that makes her change 100% clear. Because really, being captured and being told things to upset the Doctor making her abruptly 180 from "You've changed, stand with me" (12) and "Regenerate. (Cries) REGENERATE!" (10) is pretty poor writing if we're also expected to know who Rose Tyler and a Sycorax are.
In an interview sascha ran through the Masters and put himself after Gomez. Personly I can't wait for the Master to regenerate, Sascha's is a raving pantomime loon. Missy was barking but also clearly cold and calculating. He just comes across as a crazed idiot.
I think I saw that interview, it definitely seemed more "chronological/irl" than series timeline canon.

But in Dhawan's defense, he might not know for certain or is just going by assumption.

On that same note - Having seen Dhawan in other productions I feel like he's being told to play it that way. It's a shame, because when he turns it down (Think the very mannered, dry "Logopolis" joke in "Spyfall") he can still be intense but, imo, way more effective. He did another interview alluding to "anxiety" over being able to deliver as the Master, which really makes me think there was more than a self imposed expectation.

And, Cynically- So much else is desperate to remind the audience of the Davies era that it seems a little more than coincidental that suddenly he's a manic, Joker-esque type for "big" scenes again. It's a shame, because his more tempered moments (again, imo) like neutralizing Ashad carry so much more menace.

Dalekoddjob
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Re: Series 13 Discussion thread (SPOILERS!!)

Post by Dalekoddjob »

Spannerintheworks wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:18 pm
Dalekoddjob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:15 am
Spannerintheworks wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:43 pm


We really have no confirmation this is "next" from Missy though. (If I'm wrong, sources?) And, I do agree the Master-Missy tussle would be unknown to the Doctor but.....that STILL seems a bit curt with little character illustration onscreen. (The "hero" just naturally wanting to off the villain because they're "bad" is just sloppy; 13 really gets little onscreen to justify a "turn" in her regard to the Master.)

I mean, bluntly - This era can't expect us to lose our collective minds about Captain Jack/other 10+ year old nostalgia but at the same time expect us to disregard the EXTENSIVE character development given to the Doctor-Master relationship since 2007. If 13 has turned or altered in her attitude towards him from what we saw from 10 or 12, then a (better) writer would play that out in a way that we actually knew how the character felt: A monologue. A request to him that is again denied. Or an event that makes her change 100% clear. Because really, being captured and being told things to upset the Doctor making her abruptly 180 from "You've changed, stand with me" (12) and "Regenerate. (Cries) REGENERATE!" (10) is pretty poor writing if we're also expected to know who Rose Tyler and a Sycorax are.
In an interview sascha ran through the Masters and put himself after Gomez. Personly I can't wait for the Master to regenerate, Sascha's is a raving pantomime loon. Missy was barking but also clearly cold and calculating. He just comes across as a crazed idiot.
I think I saw that interview, it definitely seemed more "chronological/irl" than series timeline canon.

But in Dhawan's defense, he might not know for certain or is just going by assumption.

On that same note - Having seen Dhawan in other productions I feel like he's being told to play it that way. It's a shame, because when he turns it down (Think the very mannered, dry "Logopolis" joke in "Spyfall") he can still be intense but, imo, way more effective. He did another interview alluding to "anxiety" over being able to deliver as the Master, which really makes me think there was more than a self imposed expectation.

And, Cynically- So much else is desperate to remind the audience of the Davies era that it seems a little more than coincidental that suddenly he's a manic, Joker-esque type for "big" scenes again. It's a shame, because his more tempered moments (again, imo) like neutralizing Ashad carry so much more menace.
I'd agree with that. John Simm was superb in World Enough and Time (and a cool costume) when toned down. So Sasha has potential when toned down. After saying that his performance in the Great is anything but LOL

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